The Vegetarian Society - vegetarians don't eat fish

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Want to get involved in the great fish debate? Do you agree or disagree with points made below, or do you have a different view entirely? We’d like you to share your thoughts and let us know which way it cuts for you!

(if you are replying to a particular point, please quote the name of the person who made the original post, just to help us keep track)

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Some recent questions and comments
Every day I think about animal suffering. It bothers me when I see lorry loads of livestock on the South Downs where I live or I get stuck in the car behind a truck load of chickens being taken for ‘processing’. But I have to say I really can’t bring myself to empathise with fish. I believe very strongly that suffering has to exist in proportion to emotional and intellectual complexity and it really has to be a matter of degree. Admittedly, it’s convenient to believe that – otherwise I would spend my waking hours haunted by the suffering of invertebrates – which surely must have no consciousness at all. My ethical choices involve making daily sacrifices. I come from a meat eating culture and miss the taste of it often. It irritates me that vegetarians have to be so pious in protecting what they see as their brand and club-membership with sometimes such bad grace. Wouldn’t it be better to direct that anger where it would really do some good – at those people who have no ethics – for whom intelligent, self-aware, emotional beings are no different to a tin of beans or a loaf of bread. But ultimately I think the vegetarian lobby’s all-or-nothing stance is counter productive. It shows that some people are more interested in trumpeting their own self-sacrifice than encouraging a gradual shift to more ethical eating. Can’t we all be just a bit utilitarian? I’d rather a hundred people gave up meat for one week each year, than one person gave up permanently. I’m happy for people to wear any badge they like if they’ll eat fewer birds and mammals – and yes I’d be very happy for them to substitute fish for cows any day! SO THERE! ~ Alan Sullivan
Hi, I really enjoyed the Panther's sharing of thoughts; likewise, after a couple decades exploring each, rather than say im an athiest, I just say I'm a CaJewBu. Thats Catholic, Jewish and Buddhist. I've taken good things from them all! As someone who LOVES both fish AND VEGIES, the limited term Pescatarian just doesn't cut it for me. Instead, I like to call myself an Amphibian It conotes equal attachment to the land and the sea, ya? LOL! It works for me! ALOHA, ~Sharon Lee Rosewoman
To Daniel: I repeat: most vegetarians would not dream of despising pescetarians; we just get frustrated at the confusion caused in the wider world when the term "vegetarian" is wrongly used. Also, regarding your point about living / not living in an animal's element and consequently being able to have / not have a relationship with the animal: I don't see the relevance of this argument. I don't believe we should view an animal in a particular way depending on its relationship with humans. Animals simply exist in their own right, whatever their milieu, and are all worthy of equal respect. Just because I do not breathe through gills doesn't mean that I should not recognise a fish as an animal equal in validity to a chicken or a cow. You talk of our opportunistic nature when it comes to food. Of course this is as true of humans as it is of any animal - we eat what we need to survive. But there is a huge difference between the hunting and foraging necessary in past times and in some societies today and the Western world's intensive farming methods and supermarkets bulging with choice. Finally, I heartily agree with your last point - choosing kinder, more sustainable diets can only be a good thing. ~Jacqui White.
Firstly, I would like to express a little bit of sadness toward vegetarians who despise pescetarian as if the world wouldn't be a better place if people were only pescetarian... As for myself, I've been vegetarian for 4 years and "pescetarian" for the last 7 years. However, I feel that the fact of barely eating fish once in a moon, hardly qualifies as "pescetarian" and I do indeed usually say that I am vegetarian as anyway people here in Bolivia wouldn't understand the pescetarian thing anyway! Also a fact of life, we do not live in the same element as fish and cannot achieve whatever kind of relation with a fish or shellfish (I do not of course include marine mammals) as we can with earthly animals. Within that view insects and bugs would also be permitted in such a diet. Mostly, what I really want to say is that people seems to forget that mainly we are opportunistic creature and we eat what we can find. As for my theory of primal man diet, after reading so much history, I came to realize that the main change in our diet was made right there in the trees... where we found eggs when there wasn't any fruit left! I did experiment a fruitarian and raw egg diet for a while and it did feel right and my lab results were outstanding! Sadly, it is a very hard diet to live by nowadays, at least in the city where the quality of fruits and eggs is so depressing. Finally, remember that we are (pescetarian, vegetarian, vegan, fruitarian, raw-foodist) such a rare find that we should embrace ourselves without judging knowing that if only the people of the world would choose any of those diets the world would definitely be a better place! ~Daniel
To Becca, I agree with that, the topic here is non fish eating and we shouldn't bicker. If my manner offends you then I apologize but animals, animal rights and welfare are my passions in life. I spend a large percentage of my free time campaigning against cruelty in one form or another and yes maybe I lose my patience, but that's the way I am and I'm too old and disillusioned to change now. ~ Barbara
Barbara; It wasn't supposed to be an aggressive statement; I was aggrieved by the manner by which your comment came across and felt it was unnecessary. For example; "that is a silly comment to make!" and "What a load of....!" We are still singing from the same song sheet - my grievance wasn't anything to do with the topic of debate; it was purely the manner in which you spoke to me. I don't appreciate being spoken to like I'm some sort of halfwit purely because my source of information was incorrect; so perhaps drawing a line under this and carrying on fighting for a cause we both believe in is agreeable. ~ Becca.
To Paul: I don't think that most people who go vegetarian or vegan do so simply in order to give themselves a label, but because they ARE concerned about the issues you mentioned. Yes, misinformation and misunderstandings within society at large can then lead to debates about the definition of the term "vegetarian". But I think it is highly unlikely that most people would make a decision to commit to a drastic change in their diet if it were not for a deeply held principle. All the vegetarians I know do it because they do not want to eat animals - ever! These people are most certainly NOT more concerned about their label than about how what they does affects the creatures who inhabit the planet. They have made a lifetime commitment, because they care desperately about the suffering of animals. Generally, I think vegetarians and vegans only get involved in debates about labels because the outside world often doesn't understand what "vegetarian" and "vegan" mean, and we have to keep explaining. ~Jacqui White.
From what I’ve just read, it seems as though a lot of people are more concerned about what they can call themselves, or how they can label themselves during morning coffee sessions (green tea) than actual concern for the planet or the creatures that inhabit it. If I can get my child to eat one less BigMac, I have made a difference. Even if I can’t label myself or them as a vegetarian. ~ Paul North
Becca, it's not that long since we were singing from the same song sheet, now I'm condescending (twice), but, like you, if I have something to say then I'm going to say it. And I don't like being "told off" in such an aggressive manner either. Practice what you preach please.~ Barbara
I wonder if there are people who go on vegan forums and say, "I'm a vegan who eats eggs and/or dairy." Or: "Why can't you vegans lighten up on the eggs and dairy front?" ~ Jacqui White.
Barbara; Perhaps before being condescending about my 'silly remark', you should look at my source which was clearly stated next to the comment and think before you speak. And not all of us 'sit and read nutrition and health food text books' for fun - I read Law text books, as I am a Law student. I know nothing about health food and nutrition and perhaps correcting me before being so condescending and telling me my error would have been more agreeable. I don't appreciate being spoken to in such a manner. ~ Becca.
I am a pescetarian (some spell it piscetarian, but I have always spelled it pescetarian), but I don't do it for the sake of animals, I just happen to be tired of all of the fat and grossness that generally comes with red meats and white meats, and the helping animals - besides fish of course - is a bonus. I realize where you are coming from, for all of those who say that fish and other animals are equal to us, and I agree to an extent, however it is animalistic nature if you are programmed to be an omnivore, such as humans are, to be as much. Hyenas will eat the zebras and cats will eat the birds, as is nature. I respect vegetarians and vegans, as my cousin is a vegan and even has two diners (Spiral Diners in Texas) dedicated to her lifestyle, and if a vegan or vegetarian were to ever be served in my home I would willingly provide them with their preferred meal, however I will continue to eat my fish, and never claim to be a vegetarian because I AM NOT, and I will correct anyone who assumes otherwise.
Yes, I agree with Barbara. Eating out can be a pain in the neck, but I've not been to many places where there's absolutely nothing I could eat. Even though I would love a bigger choice, I just get on and eat what's available for vegetarians, and appreciate it all the more when there is a good choice. Sometimes a bit of research before going out can help. There are quite a lot of veggie and veggie-friendly restaurants out there. I would say that there's no need to eat fish if you don't really want to as there are plenty of places you can get good vegetarian food. Lots of us do so. ~ Jacqui White.
Well Rachel, it's not just you who doesn't have a whole lot of choice in restauraunts, it's all of us who care enough not to eat meat or fish. And really now and then not getting a "balanced meal" isn't going to do you any long term harm if you're eating well on the whole. So if you're really hoping to stop eating fish why not just enjoy a veggie-burger, vegetarian lasagne, all-day meat-free breakfast, 5 bean chilli, jacket potato or whatever vegetarian option is on offer (with chips, rice or salad if you so desire) and just enjoy your meal out without an animal having to die for you? I'm afraid you have to suffer for your principles some times and either eat the veggie options or stay at home and cook. ~Barbara
Right. vegetarians do NOT eat fish. It ticks me off to the fullest when someone labels themself as a vegetarian when clearly..they're not! How is it fair to save lambs and chickens but not give a toss about the poor fish (which for the record, still feel and suffer). I think it's completely hypocritical to say you're a veggie when you still murder fish. Fish are not below other animals, and humans are not above others either. Sure, they're not as cute or anything, but so what? There's some real ugly humans but we don't slaughter them do we? It's all about favouring animals because of how they look. That's not fair. Also, i hear alot of "vegetarians" saying they eat fish for nutritional purposes. What? If you care for the animals, you'll understand that that excuse is a load of twollop! You can take vitamin tablets, and get sufficient nutrition from lots of other NON-ANIMAL sources. So basically, if you eat fish, don't kid yourself...You're not vegetarian.
I am a piscatarian have been since I was four. I really want to give up fish but unfortunately for me that does not leave me with a lot of options (sometimes none at all) for getting a balanced meal if I go out to a restaurant. Most of the time it is easier on courses etc for me to claim vegetarian so that there will be at least something I can eat although of course when I say that I don’t expect there to be any fish. When explaining to people I say I am veggie for the most part but I cheat by having fish when going to restaurants as their other choices (if any) are so poor when people say to me that they think all veggies eat fish or chicken I do tell them they are wrong. I do not eat fish at home because I can find plenty of yummy balanced things to cook with. I hope pub/ restaurants will catch up one day and provide decent veggie food not just chips or a salad or cheese jacket potato as it would be nice to see some yummy recipies.~ Rachel
To the unnamed person who has declared that a vegetarian who doesn't eat meat is a piscatarian, I can only agree with Jacqui and say if that person doesn't eat the flesh of animals or fish then he/she is actually a vegetarian. But if that person doesn't eat meat but eats fish then yes they could be termed a piscatarian. I'm a bit confused as to why you would refuse to take vitamins and instead choose to eat fish, surely if you care enough to stop eating meat, you could care enough to take a few vitamins and save the lives of fish you wouldn't then eat! Fine words and actions are all very well, but when the chips are down and you need your protein or whatever, it's back to eating the poor old fish and "refusing" to take vitamins. Such dedication! ~ Barbara
Re.the last comment, I think the technical name for "a vegetarian that doesn't eat meat" is actually "a vegetarian"! ~ Jacqui White.
The technical name for a vegetarian that doesn't eat meat is an apiscatarian (im sure I spelled that wrong but that's the word). I've been one for about 2 and a half years now mainly because I was anemic before I stopped eatting meat and I still needed the nutrients because I refused to take vitamins so I continued to eat fish to get the protein and everything else.
I'm sorry Becca, but "Fish have actually been proven to have no health benefits whatsoever". What a load of....! Regardless of your point of view on the fish/veggo debate, that is a silly comment to make (from someone who enjoys reading food and nutrition text books for fun). This week I made the decision to cut meat from my diet, but not fish. It is the way my mum has lived since being pregnant with me - she was vegetarian but started to eat fish as she was quite young and was afraid that I wouldn't get the nutrients I needed. She was an avid animal activist and vivid memories from my childhood include ripping down circus posters and sitting in the lounge room crying over a bear that was made to ride a bike. Do I think that all of a sudden I'm a vegetarian? No. But from watching my mum over the years get served chicken from people who thought it a) was white meat and therefore didn't count or b) if she ate fish she must also eat chicken, I realised that in many circumstances, the only way you can be sure (well almost!) not to be served meat is to simply say you're vegetarian. No disrespect or reputation damaging intended. I am not going to tell people I'm a vegetarian although one day I hope to be. But I hope I am not judged too harshly for not jumping straight to a diet of vegetables, grains, fruit and tofu after 21 years of including meat and fish!
The debate between is someone that eats fish a vegetarian is understandable, but in reality utterly meaningless. I’m a Piscetarian, and try to describe myself that way. However I have to admit that often people don’t get it. When I describe what I will/won't eat, they start calling me a vegetarian. Sometimes I just let it go. The only truly clear line of demarcation seems to be vegan and non-vegan. Its simple… Comes from an animal? Won’t eat it? Ok you're Vegan. If you eat something that comes from an animal, you're not vegan but then what are you? It's not true that Vegetarians only eat vegetables, since they often eat eggs or drink milk or eat cheese, just like its not true that meat-eaters only eat meat. The problem as it needs to be understood is that it’s very rare for a social movement that doesn’t have an organizational structure to give itself a name. Names for things are given by society to a group. The term ‘Liberal’ means something VERY different now than it did 100 years ago (Libertarians were Liberals back then, Liberal means something else, and if you go to Libertarian websites you will see people arguing it just like this). Piscetarian is a nice term, since it absolutely describes. Vegetarian if taken literally would seem to imply Veganism and not what people actually eat. So I say, eat what you want. Tell people what you will or won't eat and ignore what the label is. If you became a <whatever> for ethical reasons, it’s more important to convey that (and perhaps why you don’t extend that same non-killing attitude to whatever other animal or plant you will eat). If you did it for health reasons, same thing. Telling someone that you’re a Vegetarian doesn’t accomplish any of this.
To the person who left me a message but didn't add their name- fair enough, you are as entitled to your opinions about feeding and caring for cats as I am, but I go by the belief that cats are born meat eaters, they enjoy meat and they should have meat. I am never going to force any of my cats to change their diet. Not too sure what point you're making about eggs, don't you think that I should be allowed to buy free range eggs because I already abhor battery farming? I think perhaps you live in a different world to me - giving free range eggs away to the average family would make not a jot of difference, they'd take them if they were free and want as many as they could get, but when the hens were off laying they'd be back to the supermarket getting 18 battery hens eggs for a quid. The money I pay for eggs I buy helps the chap who owns them (and some are rescued battery hens) to be able to afford the necessary food and equipment to continue keeping his free range hens, who I might add live out their old age without being killed when their laying days are through. Of course I agree that eggs are not vegan, they never could be. To Simon and those others who wonder why we come on here and rant about fish eaters..well it's the vegetarian society fish think tank, what else do you expect on here...recipes for salmon pate? And the person who regards cats in the same way as people regard grey squirrels, well mate they are wrong and you are wrong. It's not only animals that can be vermin. Melody no one is pressuring you, well done if you are hoping to become a vegan, but again there's no point in coming onto a veggie website then wondering why people are biased against those who purport to be vegetarian but in fact eat fish. ~ Barbara
To Melody: I think you'll find that most vegetarians/vegans don't actually hassle meat/fish eaters. The reason you're seeing strong viewpoints on this website is precisely because that is what it's for, and people are taking the opportunity to air issues they feel strongly about, even though these same people are probably very polite and tolerant towards meat and fish eaters in everyday life. Again, I feel I must make the point that vegetarians are not necessarily having a go at fish-eaters for eating fish, but because we get frustrated when fish-eaters call themselves vegetarian, because: a) they're not! and b) it causes so much misunderstanding in the outside world. You really can't blame vegetarians for not wanting non-vegetarians describing themselves as vegetarian! I don't think that most vegetarians/vegans are as judgemental as you think, and most would be pleased that someone was cutting down gradually on the meat/fish/dairy, etc they chose to eat. I'm sure that most of us would feel that any steps taken towards a kinder diet are to be applauded. ~ Jacqui White.
I pesonally think you veggitarians who are mad at the fish eaters for eating fish should being so uptight and should give fish eaters some slack! most fish eaters will probably end up veggitarians anyway. I personally am considering cuting out all meat (but fish) from my diet. I'm taking babysteps to becoming a vegan. I mean seriously, you can't expect people to wake up one one morning and cut out the majority of their diet! Things like this tend to take time! I have a bestfriend who is a fellow animal lover and a vegan, she doesn't yell at people to be vegan, and if you ask her about her decision she'll tell you and STILL won't pressure you! I am sorry for my temper, but some of you people are really judgemental! (some of you less accepting people should take a lesson from us kids, acceptance is key to success!) ~ Melody
To Barbara, I didn't state that cats had to eat a certain amount of meat, I said they were technically obligate carnivores. However, that is just a label. The difference between cats and dogs in this regard is that cats simply have a lower tolerance to getting their nutrients from as wide a range of foods as dogs or humans. This is because their digestive enzymes are less able to adapt to which foods are provided, so their diet must remain within a tighter range than dogs. This doesn't mean cats can't be vegan (I know several, all healthy), just that you have to take a lot more care in formulating a vegan diet for them. Of course, most outdoor cats will eat some meat anyway by catching prey themselves, but that isn't anything to do with their carer - although considering the massively detrimental effect introduced species such as cats have on native (often endangered) wildlife, there are other reasons to hope they don't hunt/discourage them from doing so - I see British cats like most people see grey squirrels (although I would choose neutering over shooting as a solution!). As far as choosing their diet goes, I don't see that choosing it to be vegan is any more forcing anything on them than choosing which specific brand of meat-based food other dogs eat, or what bed I provide them with, or where I take them for walks. Companion animals necessarily have our choices forced upon them all the time, but I don't think forcing veganism on them is any worse than the other things I choose for them. If they had the choice, they may well choose not to go to the vet either, but most owners wouldn't respect that choice! Just as many dog owners wouldn't let them eat food from public floor areas, in case of injury or disease, even though they might try to take it. It's also not really applicable to mention natural diets, when talking about an unnatural subspecies, i.e. as they were created and spread by mankind, so is their diet/lifestyle. Plus, it's worth remembering that vegan dogs & cats are less at risk of e.g. internal parasites, as most of them are transmitted through meat, so there are some definitive health positives too. I understand your willingness to eat those eggs, but if I had access to such eggs I think that either I would not allow them to be used at all (to avoid encouraging people to depend upon eggs, as they may use alternative, less ethical sources if those were no longer available), or I would give them away free to people who would otherwise be buying eggs, so limiting their damage. If you wouldn't otherwise choose to buy eggs if you couldn't get those, then selling/giving them to you would not lessen (and may increase) any harm, so I would keep them for someone else instead. I saw a sanctuary website which claims their eggs are vegan, which annoyed me - however justified they think they are in using them, they simply aren't vegan, just like fish isn't vegetarian! I can't say that I've ever needed any resolution to become or stay vegan though! Once you understand the reasons for doing it, it's easy, presumably like you find being vegetarian easy because you are well aware of the consequences of eating meat, so you just wouldn't be tempted. I didn't know any other vegans for the first two years (the first one I met was my now-husband, who converted from vegetarianism to veganism the day we met), but because I had access to the internet, I was never short of information and inspiration - and having been vegetarian all my life I was already used to reading labels and asking awkward questions in restaurants! I completely agree with the points people are making about the reasons behind not calling yourself vegetarian if you eat fish - as people have said, one of the main reasons is that otherwise true vegetarians will be served fish by friends and caterers. And it's no good just making them something else, the trouble is it's too late, it's already been produced, the fish is already dead, and is extra to what would have been killed if there wasn't this confusion (and may even be wasted completely). This is partly why I stopped getting takeaway at a local Indian restaurant - four times, although I clearly specified I wanted the vegan thali, they gave me dairy. Washing my tiffin out and having it refilled is no good to the cows that have already suffered more on my unwilling behalf!
I am a vegetarian ("one is does not eat meat, fish or fowl or any derivatives"). I believe that people who eat fish but not meat (piscatarians - excuse the spelling!), are at least making an effort by cutting meat out of their diets. So good on them! Most piscatarians will go on to cut fish out of their diet eventually for a variety of reasons, either realising the negative impact fish farming has on the environment, for health reasons or due to the cruelty involved in farming fish. However...I believe the reason so many true vegetarians get upset with fish-eating 'vegetarians' is the UTTER confusion it causes amongst Joe Public, school caterers, restaurants, cafes, the media etc. Restaurants ARE getting better at providing vegetarian food and realising that vegetarian also includes fish and supermarkets are generally very knowledgeable but there are still a lot of establishments that don't have the foggiest idea what a vegetarian does or does not eat. Even some celebrity cooks get it wrong (Delia once put anchovies into the vegetarian auberine dish she was preparing!!) And this causes confusion for the vast majority who are NOT veggies. Vegetarians (I repeat "one is does not eat meat, fish or fowl or any derivatives") are NOT 'miltant' but are living by the priniciples that define a 'vegetarian'. Put simply, you fish eaters - whilst good effort for cutting everything else out - are NOT vegetarian!! You are meat eaters. ~ Louise B, London
To Shannon, I had to smile at your original description of your diet, cheat-arian is a good name actually and one that could be used with a smile more widely by people who choose to eat fish and occasionally meat. I don't think by any means you could describe me as a militant veg (though I am proud to be a vegetarian and my choice IS because I do not agree with the taking of animal life for human gain) but I do get mad, as do a lot of the "masses", when people call themselves vegetarian and still eat fish (or chicken). In fact there was an article in a Sunday newspaper last weekend ridiculing vegetarians as fussy eaters and pointing out that some people call themselves vegetarians yet still eat eat chicken and fish. I wrote off very smartly to that particular columnist and am hoping my letter will be featured this week, this is why I don't like people calling themselves veggie when they are not, because it brings ridicule on us all and most of us are serious in our choice not to eat animal flesh or derivatives. If you look back through the archives you will see that I have stated more than once that I do not believe that animals should be forced to be vegetarian or vegan, I have had cats for 34 years and never have and never would deny them the meat they need but I believe in buying proper high quality manufactured cats food which has all they need to keep them healthy rather than making up their food myself. They have treats like cooked turkey and fish and they catch their own mice and birds too, that is what cats do and how they are made by nature. Humans have choice, animals follow their instincts. Good health, and a Merry Christmas to you and all. ~ Barbara
I eat fish. Less and less these days and only from ethically produced stock, but I do eat it because it's my favourite and my joints have gone wrong in the past year. My issue has never been with the taking of life, in fact I'm all for that in certain circumstances (euthanasia, for instance) but with the environmental, health, and ethical impact of eating mass-produced foods of any type, particularly from animal sources. In this case my major ethical issue is with the means of raising and slaughtering animals, which should always be far, far beyond base-level free range and other legislation. I call myself a cheat-atarian to most people, which elicits a laugh and often begins a conversation. Most people are also far more canny than this board seems to portray, with a general understanding that vegetarian means no animals and when I say I'm a cheat-atarian most people automatically realise this means I still eat fish, though I make sure to clarify this point. If I ask for vegetarian options I don't think I'm going to get fish. If I want that I ask for seafood specifically. I want this distinction to be clear to people, especially for the sake my chapter-and-verse vegetarian boyfriend and people like him but I still think of myself as a vegetarian. I don't particularly care what the unthinking militant veg masses say and how mad they get about it and I'll call myself, when not feeling sassy, a vegetarian as long as I explain that eating fish isn't canon. The overall impact on our planet is what matters most and I know plenty of strict vegetarians who are not as careful as myself or even full-on omnivores in sourcing our food, clothes, etc., our transport and energy use choices, and so on. A note on pet foods - it is an act of obscene neglect to refuse, out of your own moralistic leanings, to feed an animal what it has evolved to consume. Dogs and cats are not even close to being built for vegetarianism and it's not fair to impose that lifestyle on them. Better to feed them ethically sourced, nutritionally sound, foods you choose yourself, though, than the utter rubbish in most (not all) commercial foods. If you aren't willing to feed them what they need you are torturing them as surely as the chickens and cows we work so hard to save. Don't have pets if you don't have the guts to do so, dead mice and meaty dinners included. Good eating and good health, ~Shannon
No problem, Barbara. It's unfair that we take so much backlash and rubbish from people. I live with all non Vegetarians, my boyfriend is not a Vegetarian, my best friend is not a Vegetarian and neither are my parents. My father (yes, my father!) actually torments me constantly about it, making derogatory comments, and thinking he's funny, even once telling me I had to 'ease off' my opinions and views because they wanted to eat in a Restaurant and I refused to eat anything because it was cooked in beef dripping. He calls my food 'plastic' and 'fake meat' and asks people 'who wants to eat the REAL food?' and people laugh at me, along with him. What a lovely world. It's disgusting, some people just have no understanding or respect for Vegetarian viewpoints or the way of life. I too am against blood sports, (every kind!) circuses, aquariums, zoo's, vivisection, animal 'shows' (such as, sealife dolphins jumping through hoops and whatnot), I don't eat Gelatin or animal rennet and I also don't eat honey. Therefore, yes, my diet is restricted but it's no reason to victimise and belittle. I'm a proud animal rights campaigner and it's something I believe in with my heart and soul. It's so nice to be able to talk about it with someone who has the same beliefs as me. As for the 'great fish debate', it's interesting to see the comments I addressed in my previous post have not been addressed in turn by the 'postees'. ~ Becca
Thanks Becca, and well said with all you wrote. I'm well used to taking backlash, not only about vegetarianism but also animal rights, anti-blood sports and not using products that have been tested on animals, people always have shot the messenger, but do I care? Nope, I just keep plugging on. ~ Barbara
replying to: Sorry but most of you people are pathetic! The vegetarians are like "If you eat fish, you can't be a member of our elite gang" and the fish eaters are "I'm still a better human being than the carnivors" Why don't you all stop bleating you sanctamonious bunch of kids" ~Simon How dare you? Don't you realise that by saying that, you're generally making yourself as 'bad' as us 'elite gang members'? Don't you understand WHY we're debating? Vegetarianism is a MOVEMENT. We are all part of that. But by people walking around, claiming they eat fish when Vegetarians certainly do NOT, is taking a step backwards! Making people think it is okay to exploit fish and generally giving a wrong impression of what the word 'Vegetarian' stands for! Elaine, with regards to your statement. The 'label' is important because it gives what we stand for a name, it gives the movement a name, and makes it easier for people to define themselves. Yes, some people DO define themselves wholly, as a person, with their Vegetarianism. I do. I label myself like this because I am proud, (like what my friend Barbara said), of standing for what I believe in with all of my heart and soul. What about if you were passionate about protecting the environment, and someone claims to be an environmental activist, who doesn't recycle their waste? Wouldn't you scoff, and tell them they aren't as active in the environmental movement as they should be? You'd feel shocked and astounded that this so called 'activist' wasn't carrying out what they were labelling themselves as, and you'd feel like your cause had been belittled and used lightly. Jacqui White, thank you for summing it up to a person who is not debating, but name calling, which is not mature in the slightest. Mercedez, I used to feel the same as you, ate fish for health reasons. But let me tell you, there is really no medical benefits to eating fish! If you are really concerned about your health, take Omega 3 Vegetarian Capsule Supplements. I used to take them, but I stopped and started eating a lot of avacado's, green vegetables (especially broccoli, cabbage and peas) and I've never felt healthier. Fish have actually been proven to have no health benefits whatsoever. (www.independent.co.uk). Check out the fish oil article. :) All fish are contaminated with small amount of mercury, which is extremely bad for you. Deep frying has also been said to actually increase the amount of mercury in the fish, too. There are lots of different ways to get your essential Omega Oil supplements which are much healthier than fish! flax seeds, walnuts and pumpkin seeds being just a few. :) Frankie Harpur, us 'militant vegetarians' are standing up for what we believe it, as are you. People who are prepared to rationally debate maturely and without insult will tell you that they are happy that you've made the choice not to include a lot of meat in your diets, but they'll also tell you that you aren't Vegetarian (if you were claiming to be). That is all. That's not giving you a hard time. Vegetarians will encourage you to cut out fish from your diet altogether, but decent Vegetarians won't go about that aggressively. You aren't claiming to be Vegetarian, therefore we don't have any kind of problem with you. As I've said before, Pescetarians, if you feel you lack support, make your own society for pescetarians! But if you try and join the Vegetarian society, you have to click a box which says "I do not eat meat or fish." Barbara, well done for taking all of the backlash you've gotten for standing up for our movement. You don't deserve it. - Becca
Elaine, I want to be labelled as a vegetarian because I am proud of my beliefs that animals are not there for us to exploit and because if I beat the drum loudly I might just influence someone else into thinking long and hard about giving up eating meat (AND fish) ~ Barbara
Why do you all want to be defined by a “label”. They mean nothing. It is the reasons why people do things that are important. ~Elaine
My main problem with fish eaters calling themselves veggie is that when I go to a wedding or function I always get a fish dish. A fish has been killed in my name because there is this public perception that veggies eat fish. Plus I get to starve because they haven't cooked anything else and I end up getting no dinner. I have since taken to writing to each hotel in advance to point out the difference between piscarians and veggie's which has resulted in me getting a vegan dish. Are vegetarians an endangered species? What I don't understand is why it is wrong in someone’s head to eat meat /birds but not wrong to eat fish. Can a person who does this explain this to me? ~Mags
Actually, i have a slightly different question: I don't eat Mammals or anything that comes from mammals (no milk or any milk derivatives--or blood or fat from mammals). But i eat honey, birds, fish, lizard (if i had to) So what's that called? Thanks ~ Adam Eivy
If you are a vegetarian because you think its good for the environment wouldn't you be happy if someone else was subscribing to 90% of your beliefs and making a difference rather than shunning them off? I feel like the only reason you hate this is because some of you identify yourselves so wholely as a vegetarian before anything else that you feel resentment at other "poser" vegetarians who maybe lack your commitment. That being said a vegetarian by definition shouldn't be eating meat. I guess I would just say I'm a "fish eating vegetarian" when asked- if nothing else explaining your views is a decent conversation piece (probably less so the 100th time round). As for not putting greenpeace and political ads like that on tv- that would open the door to anti- abortion ads etc on tv- and these ads are generally over the top and push your mainstream viewers away from your goals rather than towards. While this site is pretty tasteful and non-judging towards meat eaters- some organisations are a bit over the top and some of their more extreme views really turn people off and make the organisation look like a joke (see some PETA arguments) For Mr. Panther- while I agree about children being brainwashed at a young age to an extent- aren't you recommending the same thing by influencing them to be vegetarian from birth? I of course have no problem with serving your kids all vegetarian meals in the home as this is probably most convenient- but I wouldn't want my kid not to ever have meat at school/ with friends until he could make up his own mind. ~ Rungo in London
I agree with Shoshanah. I have a Schnoodle who is a peskatarian. To b honest, it wasn't by choice of mine or hers. She had issues with her stomach and digestive system. We took her off of foods that contained any meat products and her stomach problems went away. We kept her on foods that contained fish but that did not seem to bother her. She has been fine eating foods made only with fish and vegetable products. She also loves carrots and apples. I don't think dogs have to have meat but many dog owners just go with the flow and buy their dogs "normal" dog food that contain meat. I also know that the brand I buy my dog is more expensive and perhaps other dog owners may not want to have the extra expense added onto their grocery list. As fas as the great fish debate, I think if you are giving up meat because you believe it is cruel then eating fish isn't any better. If you are giving up meat for dietary purposes only, then you may not feel there is a big deal in eating fish. It depends on what your reasons are for becoming a vegan, vegetarian, or peskatarians. No one has the same reason for giving up eating meat so I am not sure if this debate will ever be solved.
To Shoshanah, while I agree with almost everything you say I don't agree with your comments on feeding cats and dogs vegetarian/vegan food. You already state that cats have to eat a certain amount of meat and, of course, dogs look for meat as well. A point I'd like to make is that in your post you said you have chosen to not only be vegetarian but go one step further and become Vegan. I am in awe and can only wish I had your resolution BUT this is my point...you have CHOSEN your diet and I don't feel as though I have the right to choose that my (rescue..though I did actually have to pay for one to get him away from an atrocious home) cats will not eat meat and fish. I'm quite sure that given the chance to speak up they'd opt to eat meat and fish and that is as they were created to do. Humans can think and reason and apply logic but animals go by instinct, they can't look things up on the Internet or consult the RSPCA, and frankly I think they'd still eat them up even if they could. In the animal kingdom that's the way it is and we have to respect that. I DO feel guily eating eggs but as I'm vegetarian and not vegan I do so, I buy them from a neighbour who has rescued battery hens who now live free range and happily. Not all eggs are fertilised and the modest sales of these eggs have provided a safe haven for those poor hens. ~ Barbara
It's interesting that people on this board think dogs and cats must eat meat. Dogs are omnivores, like us, and although cats are obligate carnivores, there are several varieties of vegn cat and dog food. As most meat-based pet foods are processed so much, a lot of the taurine and L-carnitine (essential amino acids for these species) in them is lost, then added back in from synthesised sources by the manufacturer - these are the same sources used in the vegn versions. I don't think that people who are vegetarian for ethical reasons should buy pets anyway, there are plenty who need rescuing, but there's no sense rescuing one dog only to feed it several cows over its lifetime - you may as well put the dog down instead, so that only one animal dies (or do people think that for some reason cats are more important than chickens?!). Try browsing www.veggiepets.com I have been vegetarian (i.e. I never ate fish, and nobody who does should call themselves that) all my life - to begin with it was because I spat out meat-based baby foods, probably because my mother had been vegetarian since before I was born (although the rest of my family weren't then, now one of my sisters is). As soon as I was old enough to understand what it was about (3 years old) I reinforced my lifestyle by choosing it for myself anyway. I became vegan 5 years ago because I realised that eating eggs, dairy and honey (we have a parallel situation to the fish thing with veganism, where some people who call themselves vegan eat honey - it's also very annoying!) still caused oppression, suffering and death to billions of animals worldwide (not to mention the environmental, social and health problems). It actually started from an email sent by the RSPCA about their Freedom Foods standards - I remember reading the standards, and thinking 'those chickens don't sound very free'. Personally, I don't now see eggs as vegetarian - if you think about what they are, they're basically half a chicken. And half a chicken isn't any more vegetarian than a whole one. There is also no medical reason to eat fish - Westerners tend to eat too much protein, particularly animal-based, and if you eat enough calories you're virtually guaranteed enough protein. Omega 3s are available from algae, flax (oil or seeds), walnuts and leafy greens, and as long as you don't eat too high a ratio of omega 6s (which compete for the same enzyme to build up long-chain versions of the fats) you should be able to absorb and use them fine. Unfortunately, omega 6s are over-prevalent in Western diets at the moment, so research what you eat. If you're suffering physically or mentally from being vegn, then you're doing it wrong! It's good that some people have started their journey towards ending their contribution towards animal suffering. However, if you eat fish, you aren't vegetarian, and if you eat honey, you aren't vegan. As people have said, it's confusing to omnivores, and offensive to people who genuinely are vegn, because they don't want others to think they do the same when they have made an ethical choice not to. ~ Shoshanah
No, Simon, we're NOT pathetic or sanctimonious. Most of us just want the issue to be simple and clear. And it really is very simple. No judgements or condemnations - eat what you like. BUT: If you eat animals you're NOT a vegetarian. Fish are animals, so if you eat them, you're NOT a vegetarian. This is not a judgement, just a matter of definition. Olivia, I believe that the linguistics are that simple. ~Jacqui White.
To Mercedez, without any unpleasantness at all I just wondered what medical reasons could make you eat fish against your will? I can't imagine ever going back to eating fish or meat for any reason. Rachel, I take it that as your parents decide what you eat you are still young, so in due course you can take control of your own diet and get your protein from other sources. It's a bit hard on vegetarians to say we condemn you for your choices, after all this IS a vegetarian debate site that you've chosen to contribute to, and we're hardly likely to condone eating animals of any sort ~ Barbara
In reply to Mercedez- I am a recent pescatarian but have eaten hardly any meat for ages! I am not allowed to be a complete vegetarian as my parents say that I have to eat some protein. For this reason I eat fish. I was interested to go on this website to learn facts about vegetarians and other like minded people but was bombarded with 'THE FISH DEBATE' and was made to feel guilty for eating fish. Not only this but I only recently found out about the term pescatarian and so have only just labelled myself as one, not realising that they are seen to not have good morals as all the supposedly proper vegetarians do. This bugged me as it is a health consideration. :-( ~Rachel
I'd just like to say that being a pescatarian myself- not through choice but through medical reasons, (I used to be a vegetarian) one feels as if they are being judged when entering the vegetarian society website. As previously mentioned their is no pescatarian society and I really think there should be. For those who complain about being offered fish at a restaurant I understand your point, however can you imagine the confusion in asking at a restaurant for a pescatarian option when they can barely manage vegetarian?! I myself find it much easier just to use the terminology vegetarian as their is a general understanding as to what this is. Meals with fish in at restaurants may well contain other products such as beef geletine of suet- which is against my and other pescatarian beliefs. I do not feel pescatarians should be condemed. The choice to only eat fish is not just as we feel they are a lesser animal, but medical reasons and lifestyle choices, similar to those who choose to become full vegetarians. ~Mercedez
As far as I knew, vegetarian does not eat the flesh of any animal or fish or reptile or amphibian. I guess I thought that anything that 1) had a mother and 2) had a heart is not eaten by vegetarians. I am vegan - complete plant-based eating style, no leather, fur, wool, etc. and as much as possible I do not purchase products that are made by companies that test on animals... It is an EASY lifestyle these days. The amounts of foods and products available are incredible. Ok - so - My choice originated by my personal ethical beliefs, but of course the health benefits are numerable and un-arguable. I don't EVER condemn anyone for their choice of what to eat. Frankly, it is not my business, but more so, it is not up to me to say what is right or wrong. My choice to be vegan is right FOR ME. That doesn't make ME right about a vegan lifestyle. That doesn't make anyone who is not a vegetarian or vegan wrong, in my opinion. But, I don't think that anyone that eats anything that was an animal, a vegetarian, including fish. I'm not sure I understand their rationale. Do they think that Cows and Pigs and Chickens have souls and feelings but not Fish? Or are they calling themselves vegetarian for health reasons only? Also, I think if someone IS vegetarian, and have chosen this lifestyle because of their feelings about animal ethics, then they should know about the way dairy animals are treated... Sent wishing you good health & peace of mind... ~Lisa Gugliuzza, CPT Health and Fitness Specialist
i am a vegetarian...... or so i thought after reading this i decided to have a look at definitions of vegetarian, and this government website says alot Vegetarian—There are several categories of vegetarians, all of whom avoid meat and/or animal products. The vegan or total vegetarian diet includes only foods from plants: fruits, vegetables, legumes (dried beans and peas), grains, seeds, and nuts. The lactovegetarian diet includes plant foods plus cheese and other dairy products. The ovo-lactovegetarian (or lacto-ovovege-tarian) diet also includes eggs. Semi-vegetarians do not eat red meat but include chicken and fish with plant foods, dairy products, and eggs. http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2005/document/html/appendixC.htm as you can see vegans/total vegetarians dont do dairy, then the next does dairy, the next does eggs, and then the semi-veggies. so really if i eat eggs, maybe ur not a vegetarian at all?? i think the definitions of vegetarian and what is/isnt vegetarian are very confusing and people should just say i dont eat fish/meat etc i dont think anyone should give anyone else a hard time to what they do or dont eat. i hvae a friend whos a veggie and eats fish, another who only eats chicken, i just respect their decisions and just feel proud as a friend that they think about what is being put into their bodies. my dad for example is a meat eater, and after discussing with him how animals are killed, he still believes in the food chain but now buys free range food to know they have had a good life. im not going to judge my dad but again i feel proud that even tho he eats animals, in life he is giving them respect. I think anyone who doesnt respect or appreciate other peoples opinions and has a go at someone because they eat fish is being a bit blind and perhaps rude to peoples beliefs ~A.D x
To Simon. When you came onto the vegetarian society website did it not occur to you that the people who contribute are vegetarians? And that we enjoy a debate amongst ourselves without any unpleasantness..until now that is. I don't think any of us are better than the carnivores, but we have made our choices and are quite rightly proud of ourselves for sticking to our principles. I'd also add that I for one am hardly a kid and if I bleat sanctimoniously..well it's better than contributing a nasty remark to a forum I really have no other interest in than to have a go! Do I smell a guilty conscience? Perhaps deep down you want to be a veggie and join the elite gang ~Barbara
Sorry but most of you people are pathetic! The vegetarians are like "If you eat fish, you can't be a member of our elite gang" and the fish eaters are "I'm still a better human being than the carnivors" Why don't you all stop bleating you sanctamonious bunch of kids" ~Simon
I'm not vegetarian but I am doing a linguistic study on the labels 'vegetarian' and 'vegan', and have been keeping up with comments posted on the thinktank. Having read everybodys opinions and watched so many anti-meat-eating documentaries I am now seriously considering becoming vegetarian! I just wanted to contribute one small point to this discussion, however. There have been a lot of people making the point that if a person says they don't eat meat, then that must/should mean they don't eat fish also. Whilst this is only a matter of linguistic meaning, I think it is important for people to note that the word 'meat' does not primarily refer to flesh. It's first usage was to refer to food in general, and this remains the first given sense in the Oxford English Dictionary. Given how easy it is to get caught up in what words mean or don't mean, I think it is fair that some people get confused by the meaning of vegetarian. And another point- the first 'vegetarian' I knew (I was 6 yrs old) ate fish because she had just become vegetarian, and was struggling with the rigidity of the diet, this girl is now a strict vegetarian. Could it perhaps be said that the label 'vegetarian' refers more to an individuals ideologies and values, or intention to live a life free of cruelty to other creatures, than to the actual diet of the vegetarian? Thanks, ~Olivia
To Gordon Panther. Good on you that you’re working toward being a proper vegetarian and shame on all those who give us pescatarians a hard time! I never claim to be a vegetarian but I get labelled that by those who don’t understand the difference between vegetarians and pescatarians. Unlike Gordon, I’m afraid I’m no longer working towards being a full vegetarian. I was a proper vegetarian for a couple of years but then decided that I liked fish and seafood too much... although just saying that makes me feel guilty. Anyway, my point is that a lot of the vegetarians out there seem to give pescatarians a harder time than they do the meat-eaters!! I just want to stand up for the pescatarians like myself who don’t claim to be vegetarians and say that “for God’s sake, don’t be so mean. Surely not eating meat but eating fish/seafood is better than continuing to eat meat!” In the search for a suitable term for people like myself, I did have to chuckle once, when in a free London newspaper, I saw a letter concerning the debate where, instead of pescatarian, someone claimed that the likes of me was a “fish and chipocrite”. Yes, it made me laugh but still hurts a bit. Us pescatarians are not the enemy – all you militant vegetarians/vegans out there should focus your efforts instead on the carnivores among us. However, a word of caution – get too militant with them and they’ll be put off your cause and what will that achieve? ~Frankie Harpur
To Christina. All credit to you in cutting out meat from your diet, I'm sure like most of us you'll never want to eat it again. I really don't think any vegetarian would purposely be unpleasant to a non meat but fish eater, after all as we all know a bit of encouragement and praise does wonders and makes you want to strive more. It's just that it is so frustrating when people call themselves vegetarian and then sit down to a plate of fish and chips! You obviously do not come into this category. Also if I come over as a bit smug...well I am! I'm proud of myself and my principles and so should you be. I for one DO morally agree with your present status as a fish eater, I travelled the same road myself, I gave up meat 5 years before I stopped eating fish. Like me you'll get there in the end. I'm not sure about the diplomatic issue, I wouldn't eat flesh for any reason even to avoid offence but I suppose we're all different and of course that is a good thing. You certainly have my support and I wish you good luck in finding a meat and fish free diet to suit you. ~ Barbara
I would like to speak as a non-meat, poultry or pork eater. I still eat fish and I have never considered myself a vegetarian, though it is ultimately my goal. My entire life I have never ordered, cooked or bought meat. But it has only been 6+ months since I cut out meat completely b/c in my life as a diplomat I felt compelled to eat what was served to me out of respect to my host/hostess. In the past I have tried going vegetarian cold turkey but 1) it is difficult for my brain to process a long list of no-no’s at one time, 2) I am still building a base of knowledge about the necessary nutrients needed to supplement a vegetarian diet and 3) I'm still a diplomat and I must balance my responsibility to educate others around me without offending them by rejecting their hospitality when they serve me fish as my "vegetarian" option. So, please give the fish eaters a break in the blame game. We often don't label ourselves as vegetarian but society labels us that way b/c of a lack of information and knowledge. I personally do not give myself any type of label, like Leah K. I simply say I do not eat meat of any kind. The response from others is almost always "oh, you are a vegetarian?" and my reply is ALWAYS "no, I simply do not eat meat, poultry or pork or foods prepared with meat stock". Instead of directing your frustration and anger at the fish eaters for the distortion of the term vegetarian, wouldn't it be more proactive to start a campaign to educate society? Also, though most vegetarians do not recognize the term pescetarian maybe it should become more widely used in order to make it easier for society to comprehend that vegetarian and vegan are not "flexible" terms. Sorry for rambling. Though many may not morally agree with my current status as a fish eater, I would like to think that I still have support from those who respect that for me this is a transition process. ~ Christina N-H
You make some good points there Vicky, the only thing I would say is that cats and dogs, especially cats, are carnivorous by nature and in the case of cats they need taurine in their food because they can't make it themselves. This comes from other animals that cats being carnivores are "programmed" to eat, so although I am a committed vegetarian myself, I would never ever force my pet, especially one of my cats, to eat a vegetarian diet. It goes back to the same argument of human beings being able to think it out and choose for themselves what their diet should be according to their beliefs, our pets have no way of doing that and so rely on us for the best possible care. I think if my cats COULD choose they would STILL eat meat and fish but that's cats for you.
I eat fish currently. I describe myself as someone who does not eat meat but eats fish. Analysing why people say meat or fish and not just meat for both animal (mammals) and fish, this separation probably goes back to the religious practice where you 'gave up meat' on either a Friday or at Lent etc, but were able to eat fish as that was not classed as meat. That is how we got the tradition of fish on a Friday, if you didn't know. Anyhow, I agree with all the people who say don't call yourself a vegetarian if you eat fish. The thing is, I gave up meat (and not fish) when I did not want to eat it anymore. I did not give it up for moral reasons, or at least not consciously. I did always refuse to eat non free range eggs and I am going back 25 years when they were harder to get. As I have got older I have realised the cruelty that goes on in the world, including in food production. I am a member of the HSA (Humane Slaughter Association) which campaigns for both animals and fish to live and die without unnecessary cruelty at time of slaughter and up to including transport and where/how they are raised eg stock density of fish and novel stunning methods which can be placed on fishing boats so fish are killed quick at time of harvest. I think animals and fish will continue to be consumed for a while yet, and maybe for longer by pets, which means we need to support such organisations which educate workers in food production so that any meat and fish we do eat or feed to our pet is produced with minimal cruelty. ~ Vicky
I can't pretend to know much about supplements but I got some Omega 3 for vegetarians and vegans at Tesco, £2 for 30 capsules, the pack says to keep your joints supple and heart healthy, that'll do for me. The ingredients listed are Vitamin E 0.67mg and Flaxseed Oil (Linseed oil) providing Omega 3 300mg plus stuff to make the capsules out of, they're free from sugar, wheat, gluten, yeast, FISH, milk, egg and salt. ~ Barbara
There are now at least three vegetarian and vegan products available online that contain at least 200mg per capsule of DHA, which can be converted by the body to EPA. The DHA is obtained from seaweed or algae and the products contain no poisonous heavy metals. A quick google will bring these products up. It's a major breakthrough and seems from online anecdotes to have done wonders for the physical and mental health of some people, so I think it's very important to spread the word. I believe the knowledge that there is now truly no known essential nutrient that vegetarians can't get would massively boost the numbers of vegetarians and the health of existing vegetarians, and in particular cut the number of people eating fish. Please mention these developments in the campaign. Flax is pretty rubbish, it did nothing to improve my concentration, memory or emotional state but DHA does seem to have worked wonders. It doesn't seem right that vegetarian groups are still pushing flax as an alternative for the omega 3 fatty acids that are the most important for brain function. ~ Rachel
I hope all vegetarians, pescatareans and those who would like to join either group of believers had a wonderful Christmas lunch and I hope that by next Christmas the ranks of both have swelled. Best Wishes, Barbara
As Becca said, I do not and would not ostracise people who eat fish, and as I've already said further down this board I'm of the opinion that any cutting down on meat or fish is at least a step in the right direction and should be applauded. It's just this on-going thing about people eating fish and calling themselves vegetarian. Becoming a vegetarian doesn't come easily...if , like me, you ate meat and fish from childhood until well into adulthood before realising that it is wrong to eat animals then to be able to call yourself a vegetarian is a reward, like gaining a qualification, there was determination involved to stop eating flesh, not because I didn't like it but because as an animal lover, animal rights camapigner and fundraiser for an animal sanctuary my conscience would no longer pipe down and let me continue to eat it. If you went to university and worked hard for four years for a degree wouldn't you resent someone just doing half the course and then calling themselves a professor? Fish-only eaters deserve recognition and a title of their own to distinguish them from carnivores but they're not vegetarians, pescatarians seems a reasonable title to me. ~Barbara
Did you say, Lizzi, you probably care more about Vegetarian issues, more than MOST Vegetarians? You've just shot yourself in the foot. That is not fair. Barbara is not ostracising Pescatarians for eating fish, as I'm sure I stated in my previous post. And we've never said that eating fish isn't good enough. The fact of the matter is, pescatarians are calling themselves Vegetarians, and consequently, people are developing the conception that Vegetarians eat fish. Vegetarians DON'T eat fish! It's upsetting for a lot of Vegetarians to be offered fish as a 'Vegetarian' dish. We are campaigning to stop cruelty to animals. Fish suffer cruelty, too, and if the conception that Vegetarians eat fish gets out, then it defeats the object of becoming veggie for a lot of people! Fish seems to be meat that most people can't seem to let go of ; why is this? (I'm not patronising, i'm just curious). I realise there are health issues with becoming Vegetarian, if you don't do it properly! but I've been Vegetarian 5 years and I haven't got any health issues. I take Flaxseed [Linseed] oil non gelatin capsules twice daily, and a Vegan Multi vitamin tablet every day. I also drink soy milk, eat vegetables with everything I have [green vegetables, like broccoli, which is excellent for iron levels] and I eat Vegetarian Cheese which is a good source of.. something, haha. [Vegetarian cheese is made with Vegetarian rennet, which is rennet produced by fermentation of the fungus Mucor miehei which is in replacement of animal rennet.] And I think, rather than 'pesco's' fighting with vegetarians to be labelled as a vegetarian, which they obviously want to be, they should focus their attention on cutting all meat out of their diet, INCLUDING FISH, because CRUELTY TO FISH DOES EXIST!! I'm sorry, but we cannot accept pescos calling themselves vegetarian. i despise it. i'm so pleased people are trying their best to become vegetarian, and i have no problem with pescos apart from the labelling thing. What you said, about fighting for the 'real issues', [animal cruelty and whatnot]? the truth of the matter is, by buying and eating fish, you are still supporting the cruel animal trade. Not to a horrific extent, of course, which I salute and commend you for, but still supporting it in a small way. Vegetarians cannot be seen to support animal cruelty in any way, and pescatarians need to be told. I'm sorry for all of you pescos out there, i mean no offence, why not start a pesco society to gain the support you feel you lack? ~Becca
OK Barbara, so maybe "pescetarian" is better, and doesn't have any of the problems that you described with vegequarian. I am on the same side as you here, I don't want fish-eaters calling themselves vegetarian; but the way to do it is to give them an alternative. We have to look at the bigger picture here; people who have cut out all meat except fish have taken steps in the right direction, and should be encouraged - a hardline stance will drive them away from our cause. Anyone who even cuts down on their meat consumption is contributing to our cause - which is to reduce animal suffering and environmental damage, not to make ourselves morally superior. Fish-eaters can't use the label vegetarian, but I think that they should have another recognised label, as there are many of them and I think they are isolated, ostracised by both omnivores and vegetarians.
I think you all should just chill out. I was a vegetarian but for health reasons I was advised strongly to eat fish, which I do now but not very often. I still have all of the opinions that a vegetarian does, and probably care alot more than most vegetarians about environmental and ethical reasons. But at the end of the day people's health comes first because if we are unhealthy how do you expect us to carry on with spreading the word and encouraging others to be vegetarian. Just because I am forced rarely to eat meat doesn't mean that I like it or agree with it. We all have the same intentions so stop picking on people, like humans pick on poor animals. We should stop arguing and start working together to combat the REAL ISSUES. ~ Lizzi - Pescetarian
Yes, I have a comment. Fish have lives, those people who eat fish therefore deprive an animal of life and eat its body. Vegetarians do not eat the bodies of fellow creatures. No way should a fish eater call themselves vegetarian. They demean the word and frankly do not deserve the right to use it. I have never heard of the term vegequarian and to be blunt I think it's tosh. It would be confusing to people and possibly the subject of mockery. If people want to eat fish good luck to them but they have no claim on any word that begins with vege as vege means LIFE. ~ Barbara
Actually, on second thoughts, I think there is one way out of this dilemma. We have got to promote the term "vegequarian"! There should be vegequarian restaurants, societies etc. set up - and the term would soon rise to a similar calibre as vegetarian and vegan! Then these millions of people would actually get a reward for their dietary change, they would not feel isolated or rejected anymore, and they would not have to cling to the term "vegetarian" to be socially recognised! Any comments?
I am grieved by this whole "war" between vegetarians and pescos - all because of the issue of labelling. I am a vegetarian (not a pescetarian) and the only reason that I am discontented with pescos calling themselves veggo, spreading the idea that veggos eat fish, is that it confuses people who are catering for vegetarians - I have been offered fish as a vegetarian option! It is this practical consequence, not an arbitary moral stance of "superiority", that makes me complain. That being said, I feel that what is really to blame is that we have taken labelling and divisions too far. We have two established labels - "vegetarian" (no products of an animal's death) and "vegan" (no animal products) - the words "pescetarian" or "vegequarian" are not really used much - have you heard of a vegequarian restaurant? or an organic pescetarian grocer? This "label" does not give the pescetarian the "reward" that the label "vegetarian" gives to the lacto-ovo. Sure, labels are useful - how otherwise would we define ourselves and receive proper catering? - but in my opinion, we have taken them way, way too far.
Wow Becca! That told them :-) but I do agree with your sentiments and it's an endless source of annoyance to me and my friends when people proudly state they're vegetarian but eat fish, I applaud them not eating meat but, as I've raved on about before...... fish is life! Earlier this week we walked out of one of a well known chain of pubs branches because we wanted a vegetarian breakfast and were informed after I'd placed the order and paid for it there "were none" and we should choose something else............ well of course everything else included meat or fish so I stated loudly that being vegetarian we wanted vegetarian meals and if they couldn't provide them then we'd have a refund and go elsewhere, which we did. I didn't get my breakfast but I made a bit of noise for vegetarianism. Likewise while waiting at supermarket checkouts, my friend and I discuss the horrors of meat and fish eating loud enough to be overheard. I always think that if you can get the chance to speak about being veggie, and why you are, then maybe you are sowing a seed and somewhere along the line it'll take root. ~ Barbara
Pescatarians - please don't call yourselves Vegetarians. You're not. I'm sorry if you feel this ostracises you... but it's the truth. You've got to accept Vegetarians are called Vegetarians for a reason! - Vege - tarian. Someone who eats a majority Vegetable diet and eats no flesh of animals - meat, poultry or FISH! I for one am extremely sick of being offered fish as an option in restaurants. I ask "what's your Vegetarian option?" then say "Tuna? Fish and Chips?" I am tired of responding with "No, I'm Vegetarian. Whats your Vegetarian option, with no meat!" I'm also sick of what appears to be a very narrow Vegetarian choice. The restaurants are catering better to Vegetarians now, but surely they can think of something more imaginative than Lasagne or pasta? I'm just getting a tads sick of it now! lol " I think it is very unfair that people who eat fish (peskatarians) are recieving so much grief. I personally think that it's a slightly unprovoked attack. You vegetarians have your own society, we have nothing; even though we don't eat cows, chickens, turkeys, pigs etc. we are still apparently as bad as those who do. Well I am sorry. I thought the Vegetarian Society welcomed everyone. Maybe I should go find a Peskatarian Society and join that. Oh sorry. There isn't one. " You're exactly right. Pescatarians do not have their own society. But I must disagree with you on a few things. Vegetarians are not giving you grief because you eat fish. It's excellent you are making the first steps to becoming a full Vegetarian! But Vegetarians don't eat fish under any circumstances. What we are angry and frustrated about is pescatarians calling themselves 'Vegetarians'! If you keep calling yourself Vegetarian when you're clearly not because you eat fish, we have every right to argue our point. The lifestyle choice of a Vegetarian is an extremely difficult change to make in the first few months. Our society is generally a meat eating society and a lot of people are ignorant to the values a Vegetarian has, and it is very frustrating to us when we are campaigning to make people aware of the values of not eating meat, but there are people walking around calling themselves Vegetarians and declaring they still eat fish, as though fish are not as important as cows, chicken, pigs... etc! It's disgraceful! Fish are animals too! Just because we can't see them and we can't cuddle them and touch them doesn't mean they don't feel pain! THEY DO! What do you think happens to fish when they are killed? They're suffocated! They cannot breathe when they come out of the water! The second they leave the water they start to die. So, in human senses, they drown or are whacked over the head. You know as well as I do that if you get smashed over the head sometimes you don't die straight away. Can you even begin to imagine how fish would feel after having been battered, barely conscious and being unable to breathe? When they are caught in large fishing nets, the ones underneath the rest are crushed to death. Dolphins and other sea mammals are caught in the nets. The nets are then, if broken, left on the sea floor damaging our sea environment. If you want a Pescatarian society, feel free to go ahead and make one. Just don't expect to be welcomed into the Vegetarian society. With regards to Barbara, respect to you. You're exactly what this world needs. A.J Smith, how can you be so narrow minded? See my above points on fish being caught for food. How can you find fish unimportant when you clearly have moral values as to cut out other animals out from your diet? You cannot say Quorn burgers wouldn't be there if Pescatarians weren't there to eat them as well? There is a huge influx of Vegetarians now and it's still growing! Proper Vegetarians, who don't eat fish! By saying you're Vegetarian and you eat fish you're throwing things we're campaigning for back in our faces. I know Vegetarian is simply a word, but it's a word with powerful connotations and you have to respect this! I'm a proud Vegetarian and I have been for a long long time. ~Becca
I do not believe that we should persecute those who eat fish for their opinion; after all we live in a society where we should accept the view of who ever come our way. I also feel that it is inappropriate of us vegetarians to get annoyed at those who claim themselves to be vegetarian when they are not; this is a simple misconception that should, if the issue is raised, be calmly rectified. I would however argue with a pescatarian as I do not believe that we should treat fish with a different attitude than we would treat any other land living mammal. Surely if you believe in the rights of animals you believe in the rights of all animals and not just the ones that we hear so much about. All animals think, feel, interact and have the right to a peaceful life - something that we have to take into account when we consider their slaughter for food. ~ Kirsten Jenkins
In my local supermarket the other day (naming no names) I saw some own brand fish-style fingers at a bit of an inflated price but thought they would make a change so bought a pack to try.....Oh dear me! They were AWFUL, like rubber encased in breadcrumbs and they tasted like nothing on Earth! I think eating fish will remain just a memory from now on and fish-alike products may stay in the chill counter at the supermarket! ~ Barbara
The Vegetarian Society’s fish campaign does not aim to attack individuals who stop eating all other dead animals but still include fish in their diet. Pescatarians are, of course, making a very real contribution to reducing animal suffering and the environmental damage of a meat-based diet. Along with meat reducers, and indeed anyone interested in vegetarianism but not yet ready to make the commitment themselves, pescatarians are more than welcome to join the Society as Associate Members. The views expressed on this Think Tank page are contributed by individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or actions of The Vegetarian Society. However, we do not apologise in any way for campaigning on this issue, or for giving people a forum in which to express their personal views. Vegetarians find the misconception that we all eat fish extremely frustrating, particularly when they are repeatedly offered fish as a vegetarian option. This one area of our work seeks to directly challenge such misconceptions and explain why vegetarians choose not to eat fish. Some pescatarians may find the information here changes their mind about eating fish but for those who do not, we make one simple request: please do not refer to yourself as a vegetarian - it just confuses other people. ~Liz O’Neill, Head of Communications, The Vegetarian Society
I think it is very unfair that people who eat fish (peskatarians) are recieving so much grief. I personally think that it's a slightly unprovoked attack. You vegetarians have your own society, we have nothing; even though we don't eat cows, chickens, turkeys, pigs etc. we are still apparently as bad as those who do. Well I am sorry. I thought the Vegetarian Society welcomed everyone. Maybe I should go find a Peskatarian Society and join that. Oh sorry. There isn't one.
To Amy, it's amazing in these "enlightened" times that even after emailing the caterer you were stuck with such an unappetising meal, when it comes to fish there seems to be this huge blank spot, I sometimes think that people think fish are vegetables and grow in the ground! Like you I have been "wound up" by my work mates, and even told to get a chicken leg down me...yuck! At one "leaving do" at work after examining and rejecting all the food I once ended up with a plate of ready salted crisps! Ah well, better than eating meat OR fish eh? At least we can have a laugh about it. ~ Barbara
I attended a work 'do' on Friday at which they served a buffet. We are asked to email if we have any special dietary requirements beforehand so I emailed explaining that I was a vegetarian. At the event the food consisted of various vegetable side dishes and a number of mains. The mains were; chicken, pork, salmon and quiche. They had clearly gone to town on all the other mains but the quiche was particularly unimpressive and the portion was tiny (4 small mouthfuls to be precise)!! I was also offered a side salad when I explained I was vegetarian (how exciting!) which the caterer served with the tongs he was using for the fish! I've been a vege for 16 years and I don't consider myself a 'fussy' vege but I am surprised at the lack of consideration vegetarianism is given when it's really not a new concept. Furthermore, when I emailed the member of staff responsible for organising the event to complain about the food and service I was told that if I was a vegetarian who didn't eat fish I should have stated this.... Eh?!.... Surely, if you're vegetarian then unless you state otherwise people should assume you do not eat fish? Even my meat eater colleagues who like to wind me up about being a vege agree with me on this one!! ~ Amy
To A J Smith, so you've changed the world single handedly have you? Well done you!! I'd just like to make a few points if I may...... How do you justify saying that "we" wouldn't have Quorn burgers if "the pescies" (of which you are one) weren't there to buy them too? You might as well congratulate the meat-eaters who occasionally use Quorn too..... why pray is it impossible that genuine long term vegetarians like myself have not influenced the market with our purchasing habits? And you don't eat other meat becaue you "know how it's made"...excuse me? Made? It is born, reared by it's mother, taken away and killed, or bred in an intensive rearing environment without ever knowing it's mother's care or for that matter fresh air and natural light. It isn't made!! It is!!! It exists...it has been alive and is now dead. You are meat!!!!!!! And so is fish. If you think I'm pious you're dead right I am when faced by a hypocrit like you. ~ Barbara
I eat fish and I call myself a vegetarian. I don’t eat other meat because I know how it’s made. It’s me and millions like me that supplied the economic muscle to finally start changing the food industry, not the pious minority and nothing the rest of you say will ever change that. For me the point of being a (cough) vegetarian is to apply pressure to a bad industry that was and is doing serious harm to both animals and consumers, with bad farmers inflicting conditions of inhumane terror and an unwillingness to know or want to on the part of others that mirrors our human on human war atrocities. Maybe to inflict or ignore is something in our collective psyche. I find this page and others like it where people who clearly have a lot in common split hairs and argue with each other over the definition of mere words deeply worrying. It’s an economic war - pick a side and for your own sakes don’t define yours so tightly that you make it a voiceless and small one. You wouldn’t have any Quorn burgers if the pescies wern't there to buy them too. So don't declare a vegetarian victory in our time and exclude the rest of us on the definition of a word - It's just what the meat farmers want. In my time I have seen the availability of vegetarian foods go through the roof and farming standards improve immesurably. I chose my diet to change the world by voting with my pocket. ...And so far I did. ~A J Smith
I am having a little rant here. Have you noticed that Heinz have recently been putting fish oil into their small cans of pasta in tomato cans such as the childrens characters ones. Surely this eliminates some of their market and means they are no longer suitable for veggies!!!! ~ Amy Hall
I think it's a bit ridiculous when people say that it's ok to eat fish because they aren't as intelligent as other mammals. Well how do we know this? Just because we can't relate to them as well that doesn't mean they aren't clever... people assume that to be clever is to be human-like. Well I'm sorry but I think humans are fools... look what we've done to the planet! Anyway, even if fish aren't as 'smart' as say a cow or chicken, this doesn't mean they deserve less respect. A mentally handicapped or comatosed person could be seen as less 'smart' than a fish. Some people in comas have no brain activity... does this mean we should eat them? Should we treat a person with a higher IQ with more respect than someone with a lower one? I've known some pretty stupid people in my time but that doesn't mean I'd start abusing them like people abuse the 'dumb' fish population. Ok so that's my little rant done with. I think this site is great and have learned a lot about the fishing industry. I don't eat fish anyway and really do get annoyed when people say they are 'vegetarian' when they eat fish. Something I would suggest though is adding some more information about the health implications of eating fish. We all know that eating meat is bad for your health and can make you fat but what health benefits could you include that would make people want to give up fish?
Let’s just forget about all the labeling. If one eats fish, one can say, I eat fish rather than using the V label. That V label would just confuse more people. How does one define ‘meat’? Fish flesh is surely meat if you eat it. I always stress fish are not vegetables. They are animals with flesh used by some people as meat. Meat doesn’t just mean mammals’ flesh, does it? Some people think because ocean fish have a happy life so it justifies the killing of them. Having a happy life = it’s ok to kill them? Fish is meat and fish aren’t vegetables. ~ Lee
Gill, I'm sorry and I don't mean this in a nasty way but when you start your message off with "My husband and I are vegetarians......" and then go on to say "...but we eat fish" it makes me think "Oh no, here we go again!" What you should describe yourselves as is pescatarian, if you eat fish you are NOT vegetarian. The lack of alternatives isn't really much of an excuse for still eating animals, you either do or do not believe in eating the flesh of something that has lived and breathed. I don't think people regard vegetarians as wierdos so much these days, it's getting much more commonplace and just about everywhere you go there are veggie options now. Have you tried using mushrooms? They give a very satisfying "chew" and taste when added to a meal and there are various types with different tastes and textures to experiment with. ~ Barbara
What about nuts Gill? People always seem to forget these but unless you have specific allergies, they are wonderful sources of protein. They also come in different flavours and so lend themselves to different dishes. For example, we would used toasted almonds or pine nuts with pasta dishes; include cashews when we boil up rice; make a tasty white sauce with ground hazels; a nut roast with chestnuts or brazils, and I just eat pecans by themselves as a snack! People also forget that "pulses" include peas, which don't have the same unsociable effects as some beans. Again, we love cooking garden peas with rice and really enjoy old-fashioned "mushy peas" with our chips. ~ Mrs B Cooper
My husband Paul and I are both vegetarian, but eat fish. We therefore (if asked) describe ourselves as pesco vegetarians, and then obviously have to explain what that means. We don't believe in giving other people a hard time about their nasty meat eating habits, so we just wish everyone would stop looking at us as if we are hippy dippy weirdoes who just fell out of the latest "save a tree" campaign. Not that we wish any harm to the trees, either..... If we didn't eat fish we think we would probably struggle to find much to eat. I mean, beans and pulses are lovely, but their after effects can be unsociable. We also don't eat "pseudo-meat", quorn and such like. If it looks and smells like meat, then I'm not interested. All this being said, can anyone suggest what the next stage is for a vegetarian diet which is currently fairly heavily reliant on fish? We would give it up if we thought we could still enjoy eating. ~ Gill
Well Rick that is a different approach I must say! I can only speak for myself, I'm a vegetarian eat NO FISH and no meat, I'm also the proud owner of a very large freshwater fish tank that is home to three huge and happy goldfish, they were about an inch and a half when they came to live with us 2 years ago and they're now about 8" each, much loved and well cared for. They swim to the side of the tank and look at us at breakfast and tea time as they "know" their feeding times and they have plenty to keep them busy in the tank plus light and shade and fresh water top ups regularly. So as they came to us from a crowded fish tank in a pet shop, I like to think that they have had a better life than they would have done if someone else had selected them at random. All fish tank owners are by no means cruel to their fish nor neglect them, if you do a bit of background research on the Internet on your computer you'll find plenty of tips on how to keep them healthy. Another point I'd like to make is that when you DO have "pet" fish in the home you really can't understand anyone wanting to kill and eat such intelligent creatures. You CAN buy vegetarian Omega capsules. ~ Barbara
	If you have a fish tank you are still vegetarian - vegetarians have pet mammals so why not pet fish?
This debate has me thinking… Are you a vegetarian if you own a fish tank? The hole veggie thing revolves around not needlessly killing things. So you could argue that a vegetarian how had a pet fish that died was in actuality a Piscarian. But no fish was actually devoured. Then again, if their was a vegetarian how was negligent of pet fish causing them to die horrible diseased deaths is agents all principles (obviously in theory; few if any vegetarians or anyone for that mater would do that). I can support both sides of the argument; Yes- no fish is eaten, fish live longer, arguably happier lives free of the fear of predators and disease. No- it is hypercritical to declare yourself a vegetarian how is agents cruelty to animals and yet have a fish tank, not everyone takes care of their pet fish leaving potential for horrible suffering leading to death(and then not even being eaten; a complete waste!), by owning a fish you support the pet-fish triad ( are all fish in all stores treated humanly? How many wind up dead before they reach the store?), and of course its cruel to lock anything up in a small glass box for the rest of its life potentially alone, and potentially deprived of the chance of finding a mate and experiencing "love"? This whole thing might be off topic, but it seams the "death to Piscarian" people use the hole cruelty to fish thing a lot, so it is sort of related. I'm 16 and a Piscarian myself. I was going to become an ova-lacto vegetarian, but it seamed hypercritic considering all the fish that died in the fish tank I own( for the record, I do my best to be human about it) and I'm not a smart guy and couldn't manage my health in regards to omega-3 outside a fish oil vitamin supplement. Anyway, its just some food for thought, probably will go strait to the archives anyway (or deleted). Moreover, sorry about the poor grammar, I am not exactly what you could call smart. ~ Rick
Lee, I'm sure you're right that it will take many many years before people finally realise that animals aren't just here to be eaten, worked and abused but are sentient animals with the right to live their natural lives in the way they were intended. I think all so called "food animals" have an awful life but fish must be amongst the worst of all because they aren't even credited with the ability to feel pain. I really admire those who stand up and shout out to the world about the cruelty of it all but as I said before I feel beat these days and I all I can do is keep beavering away and trying to do my bit locally. I agree we all should have a pat on the back though even if only for caring! Rachel, all the very best to your little girl, good for her for making up her own mind to stop eating meat, that is the way most of us started and then progressed to not eating fish either. I wish I'd had the courage at such a young age to make the decision not to eat flesh. It's just that when one says they are vegetarian and then proceeds to eat fish it makes people think that vegetarians DO as a whole eat fish, which of course is so untrue. Pescatarian is a much better choice of word and if she or you need to explain it's meaning then you're spreading the word even farther. ~ Barbara
Interesting. If fish were the only meat I’d eat, I would say “The only meat I eat is fish or fish is the only meat I eat”. It couldn’t get clearer than this. ~ Lee
Barbara, We must give ourselves a pat on the shoulder because someone has to start to raise people’s awareness of the cruelty fish and other animals suffer from. If we don’t do it, people will never see the cruelty. It will take hundreds of years before the situation sees any significant improvement. Hundreds of years ago, I am sure there were human right activists fighting for the rights of the vulnerable and the deprived in the society and it is recent history when the human race recognised the fact all humans are equal. I hope one day they’ll see all animals are equal and deserve to live in the natural world. ~ Lee
I have a daughter who aged 8 decided to stop eating meat - she is now 10 and we are a meat eating family otherwise although for many years have chosen to eat less meat in order to buy free-range, organic meat usually from local farms. She does however eat fish, her choice. She usually says when asked that she is vegetarian - not because she believes fish are not animals but because then people know not to give her meat - that is why they tend to ask, because they want to know what they can feed her. Thankfully the only time we have been verbally attacked due to using the word vegetarian, the person turned on me and not her. She does actually use the word "pescatarian" to qualify herself when being asked because someone is actually interested, because we wanted to find out what one would term someone who has a basically vegetarian diet but eats fish. Please be careful in who you attack, my daughter may well make a different choice as she gets older, maybe I will too! However I'm sure that many people say vegetarian as it is understood and, after all, being given vegetarian or even vegan food isn't a problem for someone who eats a vegetarian diet plus fish but being given meat products would be. So sometimes it's just easiest - especially for a child or as a mother filling in a dietary requirement form to say vegetarian as then you know the food will be safe. ~ Rachel
Lee I'm too much of a coward to even look at the link you posted, these days I just can't seem to bear to witness cruelty taking place when there's nothing I can do to stop it happening to that particular animal. It's way to late now for that fish. But like you, I can't understand why it's allowed to happen and why there are no regulations (and why anyone would revel in it as you said the guy who posted it did). I think we're fighting a losing battle that will go on long after at least I for one have dropped off my twig. ~ Barbara
Guys, please have a look at this clip and this is really cruel. Don’t do it to any fish. The guy who posted this thinks it’s hilarious that the fish is still moving on the dinner plate. Fish are animals and I cannot understand why there isn’t any law requiring that they are stunned first before they are slaughtered. Anyway, I am glad I am no longer part of that cruel industry because I do not eat fish. Leave some comment to educate this guy. (warning-distressing images in this clip) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=skxkHxtua9Y&mode=related&search= ~ Lee
In response to Lily: Like Barbara said, it is not "Nuff said". Does your argument mean that vegetarians can choose to eat some other meat too if it's not endangered?! What a load of rubbish! It's like saying that if you're teetotal you can choose to drink some spirits, or a particular brand of beer perhaps; or if you've taken a vow of celibacy you can choose to sleep with selected people! It's very simple: Either you're a vegetarian or you're not; and if you eat ANY meat or fish then you are definitely NOT. If you want to eat fish (or meat for that matter) then fine, it's your choice, but don't say that you're a vegetarian when you're not; because it only confuses others about people who really are. ~ Amanda
To Lily and Alex: Let me stress again: Being vegetarian means you eat VEGETABLES. Fish ARE NOT vegetables. Fish deserve to be recognised as animals, sentient living creatures. People who do not eat sentient living creatures are vegetarians. Vegans do not eat or use any products coming from animals like milk, eggs, silk, leather, wool…etc. ~ Abe
Having watched the clip from the link that Lee supplied I am sickened. Those fish have no room to move and are literally just waiting to die, I was terrified I was going to see dogs and cats in cages as well wating to be sold for food. Horrible viewing but thanks are due to Lee for bringing it to our attention. ~ Barbara
Have a look at this clip and I hope you’ll feel sorry for the fish cramped in tiny containers. Some are less cramped than others, but just imagine how you would feel if you were the fish. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7pLyYsEHGM8 ~ Lee
I think that vegetarians can eat some fish if they are not endangered. Nuff said ~ lily	In response to Lily. No Lily "nuff" not said, each and every single fish that you eat was endangered....and lost it's fight for life , we are not talking fish as a species but fish as individuals and each life of each fish is precious and unique to that particular fish. If you choose to eat fish you are NOT a vegetarian. ~ Barbara
In order to be clear, we should call people what they are:- People who eat anything:- Omnivores People who eat meat:- Carnivores People who eat only vegetables:- Vegans People who don’t eat living creatures:- Vegetarians My name for People who eat fish is:- Piscarians Pass it on ~ Alex Bird
In response to Simon; I like fish, that is why I don't eat them. There are fish-style replacements you can eat, look in the fridge/freezer section of your nearest healthfood shop. Also, I have an ideal replacement to your daily lunchtime tuna sandwich: a houmus sandwich... or tahini, or salad, or chargrilled vegetables, there are plenty of soya/rice based cheese-style products too (some better than others) - I like the soft 'cheese-style' spreads better than the hard 'cheeses'. See, there are plenty of alternatives to a fish sandwich. Good on you for giving up the other meats - beef, chicken, pork etc. but just give it a go and you will see how easy (and tasty) it is to be vegetarian. However ethically 'produced' a fish is, it is still a life that we have no right to take, especially as we do not need to eat it with all the other produce we can consume. Good luck to you Simon, and all you other 'pescitarians', you are almost there! ~Erica
I gave up eating white and red meat when I was 13 but carried on eating fish at first as mum said there was nothing else she could eat. By the time I was 16 I gave up fish too. I have never agreed with eating any kind of animal but at 13 what mum says goes! I know that proper vegetarians don't eat fish and I find it even more ridiculous that some people are calling themselves veggie cos they only eat fist. Why don't they call themselves non-mamal eaters? The only part of being vegetarian that annoys me is when I find out that something I have been drinking for ages is not suitable, such as Guinness but better late than never. ~ Yvonne, 21, Manchester
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